Curse

Liquidus · Jun 24, 2006, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Here's my complete team build with all revisions I've made. I'm looking for suggestions or thoughts of any kind: character change, skill change, weapon change, tactic change, etc. Thanks for the help.

War/Ele

12+1+3 = 16 Hammer
12+1 = 13 Str

Frenzy
Devastating Blow (E)
Crushing Blow
Fierce Blow
Hammer Bash
Irresistable Blow
Rush
Res Sig

Set1: Vamp Hammer Fort
Set2: Ebon Hammer Fort
Set3: Nolani Wand

The main damage of the build. My plan is to have this guy on the enemy's offensive casters (Mes, Nec, Ele) while our mesmer prevents their monk from healing. The warrior will charge with frenzy and use Devastating--->Crushing-->Fierce, then Hammer Bash is necessary. I've noticed that the first 3 attacks can take down a caster at around 75% provided there is no healing or stances. (Alot of damage from Fierce). The Hammer Bash is a nice unconditional KD and can conintue the chain if necessary, ALTHOUGH a monk has a chance to cast rof or cop after the fierce. I have found no way to prevent this as of rightnow.

I have thought about replacing Shock with something else, with Hammer Bash on there it seems kind of redundant. I would really like something that can help against distoration mesmers or stance rangers, and Irresistable seems nice, I will try it and see if I like it.

Against teams with a second monk, smiter, or Rit, targeting becomes tricker. I plan to have our mesmer shutdown their main healer while this Warrior hopefully kills the secondary healer in a KD chain. Distoration on enemy mesmer is a major issue. Should the warrior just keep whacking at him until he has no energy, or switch to someone else?

Ele/Mo

11+1+3 = 15 Air
10 Healing Prayers
10+1= Energy Storage
1 Protection

Note: I took 1 out of air and put in energy, which if I can remember correctly, gives 15 secs on Prodigy, which works well with the 20% enchantment mod.

Lightning Strike
Convert Hexes
Lightning Orb
Blinding Flash
Ether Prodigy (E)
Heal Other
Draw Conditions
Res Sig

Set1: Defense Staff Enchanting

The anti-melee, monk and warrior support character. This char serves many purposes. I took out lightning strike and enervating charge because the damage and covering of blind seemed not very important. Their monk is going to be losing energy anyway if hes curing all the blind, and covering does nothing against draw conditions. For those two I added in Gale for offensive/defensive KD although it should be used rarely because of exhaustion. I added convert Hexes to help against hex stacks. Heal Other is nice against multple degen or when monk is blacked out, KD, or getting spiked. Draw conditions helps to keep OUR warrior clean or Deep wound off monk.

Mesmer/X

10+1 = 11 Fast Casting
14+1 = 15 Domination
10+1 = 11 Inspiration

Blackout
Diversion
Shame
Power Drain
Shatter Enchantment
Drain Enchantment
Expel Hexes (E)
Res Sig

Set1: Defense Dom staff defense
Set2: Fort Dom staff Fort

The build I am least sure about. There are several variations of domination mesmers in TA currently and I'm still not sure which is most effective. For now, I have this shutdown mesmer with Expel Hexes. I alternate Shame, Diversion, Blackout, on the enemy monk while the warrior kills their casters. Double strips is nice, and power drain for energy and interupting. The one problem I can think of is that diversion and shame will not be as effective against a monk with both holy veil and hex breaker. Like mine =)

Monk/Mesmer

12+1+3 = 16 Divine Favor
9 Inspiration
9+1 = 10 Protection Prayers
3 Domination

Reversal of Fortune
Mend Condition
Guardian
Contemplation of Purity
Energy Drain (E)
Hex Breaker
Holy Veil
Divine Boon

Set 1: _+5 nrg sword with +5 armor and +5 armor, +45 health while enchanted foci
Set 2: -5 Energy sword and forgotten fan
Set 3: +20% HSR wand with +20% HSR foci
Set 4: +15 energy set

Fairly standard boon prot. I added hex breaker in place of inspired hex recently because I like the extra layer of protection against hexes. I start the battle with holy veil AND hex breaker, making mesmers less of a problem. I am still not sure whether the lack of secondary enegy management will be a problem. I have never used Signet of Devotion. As a free heal it seems nice, but I don't think it's better than any skill on my current bar.

I have not been able to try this build to its fullest yet because I am still training my 3 personal friends for their roles in this build. I've also played something like this (but not as organized) with my guild in TA.

I also want to get an idea of how to play against the more popular matchups I see in Team Arena. Some worth pointing out:

Hex Heavy (Ineptitude mes, migraine mes, Dom mes, or something like that)
Most of the time I play against a team like this we end up slowly dying to degen. I guess hexes is one of the weakness of this group, but what type of mesmer should be targetted first? All of them pose major problems to our team.

Smite or Dual Smite: Currently I have our mesmer shutdown their boon prot, and our warrior kill their smiter. It seems to work pretty well but I have no played against dual smite yet. WIth 3 monks, there might be a problem. HOw well are smiters able to heal themselves or each other?

That's all for now. Thanks for the help.

sno · Jun 24, 2006, 07:03 AM // 07:03

I like the monk, and as you may know if you've seen my posts, that's fairly rare. I'd point out the reason for your attributes though, to run 9 inspiration instead of 10, is because you need a few points in dom to make hexbreaker worthwhile. Taking a point out of inspiration and putting it in prot gives you a bit of extra play (due to the rune being a free point) which gives you the 3 points you need in dom.

on the mesmer, I recommend using Mantra of Recovery instead of expel (since you have convert already) and if energy becomes a problem take etap instead of power drain, it works nicely with MoR (power drain isn't really useful vs boon prots anyways.) If you run MoR you can run higher fast cast and lower inspiration, I recommend 13 FC, 14 dom, 9 inspiration (I think that works out.)

As for the warrior, irresistable is a must imo.

fb2000 · Jun 24, 2006, 09:36 AM // 09:36

well i might be repeating myself for the 1000time in here, but I find backbreaker on a hammer warrior is a huge skill ^_^. the ability to shutdown a char for 4 secs and possibly, depending on your attack skills, to kill it singlehandedly, makes backbreaker a quite viable skill for 4on4 in my opinion. having a blackout char on ur team only increases it efficiency vs 2monk teams (be it dual smiters, or 2 boons, which now and then shows up...)

getting the adrenaline for it is a bit slower, but u could fit in To the limit in there. with good use, it will give you at least 2-3 strikes, further easing you

.

i also always get crazy when i see shock on a hammer warrior

. imo, its not only useless, it actually impares your dmg dealing ability. Irresistable blow must simply be there on a hammer warrior, it does add a fair chunk of dmg, and has nice utility too. Id either swap it (thinking about Shock in here) for To the limit (if using backbreaker), or maybe look into Deaths Charge (hint hint hint :>)

I cant comment on the other builds, as Ive only played warrior and lately boon prot. Dont you run into energy problems without inspired/revealed hex?

i also recommend you listen to Snos advice on the bumping up of hexbreaker a bit, its a lot more useful with 3 in domination

PS as for 2 smiters groups, i think ur build would still be viable, but ud have to take out the boon prot (if theres one in there, ive rarely played dualsmiters) first. i dont think smiters can do much about it

PS2 a bit of editing here and there

Liquidus · Jun 24, 2006, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Thanks for the replies:

@Sno: A MoR Mesmer is certainly nice but do you think we'd still be able to win against hex heavy teams without expel hexes? Convert Hexes has a 2 sec cast and a long recharge making it ineffective for coverting more than 1 character. What about teams that hex everyone? (Ineptitude on warrior, migraine on ele, migraine on mesmer, etc.)

@fb2000: I think Sno was just explaining to everyone else why I have 3 in domination, not advising to put more in it. I'm currently trying backbreaker and to the limit. (Took out shock and fierce)

fb2000: Would you share with me the attack chain you use with backbreaker? I am trying to figure out whether I can use 3 skills after backbreaker while an enemy is still unable to use skills. ALso, I have found that using frenzy, crushing blow,and irresistable in one chain is 15 energy, alot.

fb2000 · Jun 24, 2006, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liquidus

@fb2000: I think Sno was just explaining to everyone else why I have 3 in domination, not advising to put more in it. I'm currently trying backbreaker and to the limit. (Took out shock and fierce)

uuuuh, might be ^_^. im a huge scatterbrain these days

personally, on a backbreaker warrior, I run Deaths Charge, I still enjoy running into a trapper team with a boon prot, wanding the trappers, then shadowstepping and killing the monk in 4 secs ^_^. im using backbreaker> crushing >mighty >irresistable, which is a pretty long spike, no doubt about it, but 95% of the casters dont survive it, and i think you can allow urself such a long one in 4on4 (the target is knocked down 4 secs anyway

) as for energy issues, thats where a zealous hammer comes in use, I only got one like 2 days ago tho..

hope this helps

Ive seen hammer warriors with Expunge Enchantments, but i dont think itd be that great of an idea in 4on4

PS edited to answer a bit

NatalieD · Jun 24, 2006, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liquidus

I am trying to figure out whether I can use 3 skills after backbreaker while an enemy is still unable to use skills.

As long as you Frenzy, yes.

I use the same combo as fb2000. It works quite well. You should charge up adrenaline on their mesmer or someone, and then switch to their monk for the knockdown combo, hopefully catching him without any prots up. Death's Charge helps with that, obviously.

sno · Jun 24, 2006, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liquidus

@Sno: A MoR Mesmer is certainly nice but do you think we'd still be able to win against hex heavy teams without expel hexes? Convert Hexes has a 2 sec cast and a long recharge making it ineffective for coverting more than 1 character. What about teams that hex everyone? (Ineptitude on warrior, migraine on ele, migraine on mesmer, etc.)

Try remove hex on your MoR mesmer, it ends up with a 4 second recharge, and doesn't take up your elite. The long cast time is eaten up by the high fast=casting.

BTW: yes I was just suggesting that the OP list that he has 3 dom, as it's clear by his other attributes that he does. Theres no real need to go above that unless you have free points.

Liquidus · Jun 29, 2006, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Changed a few things:

I think I like Energy Drain better than MoR on the monk. It gives me one less energy, which isn't that bad. The main benefit of e-drain is that it can be used after being ressurected. With MoR, you'd have to cast MoR and cop right away which still doesn't provide enough energy and with MoR still recharging.

I changed the weapons a bit to add a normal kiting set, and a set with skill recharge when casting energy Drain.

I took gale off the ele because 2 exhaustion skills don't work very well, I added strike for some extra damage.

I also took out shock (seemed a bit redundant and not often useful) on the hammer warrior and replaced it with irresistable.

From what I've seen so far, remove hex isn't very effective against hex stacks or even one convered hex. Convert hexes might save us once, but it has a long recharge or could be interuppted. Expel Hexes is also nice against soul barbs build.

Zui · Jun 30, 2006, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Hmm,

The new warrior looks pretty good, no objections to that. I really liked Shock on devestating hammer guys before Fierce Blow came around, but now I'm not so sure on what I prefer.

Elementalist looks good, I'd probably add a second set for him with a 20/20 hale air staff of fortitude, just because you can have 2 sets on a PvP and it might be useful.

I'd tweak the mesmers attributes a bit, 12+1+1 Domination, 10+1 Inspiration, and 8+1 fast casting is pretty good. You'll loose 3 seconds on diversion, 6 damage on shatter, and 1 energy on shame. You'll also have 1 .18s longer diversion, the slightly longer cast doesn't matter much on that, or on the other spells since they're all 1s and under(it'll cost you .6s on the 1s and .1 on the .25s.). Really not a huge deal for the 75 extra health IMHO.

I'd definently keep Expel Hexes on the mesmer, as it's great for dealing with SB/RI spike which is fairly common now in TA, especaily since RI is always the second hex from the top in the stack.

Monk looks pretty good, so no objections there.

P.S. GGs in TA yesterday, you guys were definently one of the better teams we went up against.

Kool Aid · Jun 30, 2006, 08:15 AM // 08:15

The build looks pretty good to me.

On your e/mo, I would bring enervating. Versus draw conditions it won't do anything, but when the opposing team only has mend condition, the extra 7 energy as well the increased amount of time it would take to remove the blind helps a ton.

On the mesmer, I'm a big fan of distortion. If you drop it in favor of a more offensive skill, I can understand, but whenever I'm playing a mesmer without distortion I feel incredibly vulnerable.

The monk looks quite good. I'd take MoR, but that's largely due to personal preference.

remmeh · Jun 30, 2006, 11:57 AM // 11:57

WOOT KOOL! told you guru is a nice place to be.

re: the build. it looks very solid.

when I run blinder, I don't take enervating.

The idea is to hit the warrior or whatever with blinding flash in the middle of, or just before, adrenal spike. :x If you're not that 1337, I'd suggest you bring it anyway. You can always do Orb-Enervating during your warrior's adrenal spike instead of just Orb.

Mes: almost exactly what I run. as Kool said I'm inclined to take Distortion as a self-preservation skill. It helps a lot when you're trying to fire off diversions etc. on a monk while you've got an interrupt ranger on you. It also saves your life if you hit it during the middle of a knockdown chain. Buttt it also drains your energy significantly (I put in 8 illusion, lose 2e per whiff). *shrug*

Looks pretty good overall.

Liquidus · Jun 30, 2006, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Thanks for the replies

Now that I think about it, I don't need the enchanting mod on the main ele staff, I could have it on an off staff just for casting prodigy. He'll probably a +10 defense and +60 health set then.

Distoration does seem like it would benefit the mesmer a lot by preventing most warrior spikes. Currently I'm testing distoration (took out power drain) with these stats. Not sure if energy will be a problem.

10+1+3 = 14 domination
9+1 = 10 fast casting
10+1 = 11 Inspiration
7+1= 8 Illusion

Kool, I'm curious as to the reasons you favor MoR. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like the advantages of e-drain outweigh its 1 less energy.

Rem, How do you keep track of when a warrior is about to spike so you can cast blinding flash on you? Do you just watch how many hits the warriors has done and guess when hes full of adr? It sounds like it requires a lot of focused attention.

NatalieD · Jul 01, 2006, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liquidus

Kool, I'm curious as to the reasons you favor MoR. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like the advantages of e-drain outweigh its 1 less energy.

MoR cycles faster than E-drain, so it provides more energy even apart from the slight advantage in net gain per cast. It also helps to fuel Contemplation.

I still prefer E-drain, though, both for its vast superiority after being rezzed, and a bit more resilience against mesmers.

Liquidus · Jul 01, 2006, 02:39 AM // 02:39

MoR DOES recharge 5 seconds earlier, but Energy Drain can take advatange of two 20% HSR mods. I can't remember the exact number was it 33 or so with two 20%?

Kool Aid · Jul 01, 2006, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Nathalie touched on the two obvious reasons: the better recharge cycle/energy gain as well as the fact that it removea an extra hex, condition, and heals additional health when used with cop.

Energy drain does work nicely with dual HSRs, but mor takes advantage from this as well. Due to the nature of the build there's a high probability that the mor will be removed before the duration, either through use of cop or because of enemy enchantment strips.

On the issue of ressing, I don't really feel energy to be a huge issue, provided I die on my low energy set.

Beyond that, energy drain also has a couple downsides. The first is that using energy drain is a little more cumbersome to use as you first have to get in range of a suitable target and then activate it, while with MoR you can just cast it as soon as it recharges. In addition, the amount of energy you gain from energy drain is also dependant on the target having that much energy in the first place.

sno · Jul 02, 2006, 10:40 AM // 10:40

There are many threads devoted to the MoR vs Edrain vs etc debate. Keep it out of this thread.